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Old 05-13-2006, 08:13 PM
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Default Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

Is a visit to a dominatrix considered cheating. What do you guys think? What do you think your girlfriend/wives would or do think??? If they don't know you have gone or go to a dom what do you think they would do if they found out???
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Old 05-13-2006, 08:45 PM
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Default Re: Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

That is a great question. On some level its definitely cheating,but so is fantasising about other women.IOW there are levels to cheating. When there is actual sex involved that takes it to a whole new level. If my wife found out I don't think it would be the end of the marriage or anything but she would not be happy.Now if i I were to have a full blown affair where I actually had a loving relationship with another women,that would be a different story .I don't believe seeing a dom is a betrayal of your love to your spouse ,whereas it would be by an affair.
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Old 05-13-2006, 09:26 PM
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Default Re: Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistress Taylor
Is a visit to a dominatrix considered cheating. What do you guys think? What do you think your girlfriend/wives would or do think??? If they don't know you have gone or go to a dom what do you think they would do if they found out???
I definitely do not consider it cheating!
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Old 05-13-2006, 10:40 PM
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Default Re: Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

It depends on whether the wife/girlfriend has an aversion to these fetishes!

If she is willing to indulge, it is cheating.

If not, then it is simply extra-curricular play.

Many women have no appreciation or understanding of such things. They might consider it cheating, but telling a partner to repress these urges would fall in the category of trying to make someone into something they are not.

We should be free to explore our fetishes if we choose to do so.

Difficult question.
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Old 05-14-2006, 02:14 AM
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Default Re: Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistress Taylor
Is a visit to a dominatrix considered cheating. What do you guys think? What do you think your girlfriend/wives would or do think??? If they don't know you have gone or go to a dom what do you think they would do if they found out???
Yes, it is cheating. When a man visits a professional Dominatrix, he is usually doing so for the purpose of becoming aroused by performing kinky sexual acts and then (probably) having an orgasm, all in the presence of a Woman who has been paid handsomely for Her services or at least Her presence. This comes pretty close to the textbook definition of prostitution, even though it usually fails to meet the legal definition.

So much of this fascinating debate hinges on where the line is drawn for what constitutes sex. In theory, married couples are supposed to "forsake all others." When we play word games to arbitrarily decide what sex is and what it isn't, we are violating the spirit of the marriage contract, if not the actual letter of it. Paying a Woman to spank your naked ass while you lick her boots and then ejaculate on the floor can hardly be considered "forsaking all others," except by people who are trained to manipulate language and the truth, like lawyers.

Just so that people don't think I'm some sort of religious wacko, I'd just like to say that I don't think that long-term monogamy is healthy for people. I also think that professional domination services are a good thing, and I frankly have nothing against prostitution either. People obviously didn't evolve to be monogamous, otherwise men wouldn't lust after every Woman who crosses their path. When desire goes too long unfulfilled and repressed, it tends to cause problems both for the lustful man and for society as a whole. In other words, if you can't stay faithful (and most people probably can't), either agree to have an "open marriage" or don't get married. Or else, just do whatever you want. Most people do, and the end result is a 50% divorce rate.
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Old 05-14-2006, 06:40 AM
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Default Re: Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistress Taylor
Is a visit to a dominatrix considered cheating. What do you guys think? What do you think your girlfriend/wives would or do think??? If they don't know you have gone or go to a dom what do you think they would do if they found out???

I had this question before and I do believe it is in a way, but I would like to differentiate a bit here.

I understand that not everybody is BDSM wired (though I believe almost everybody has the "BDSM gene" but a lot of people surpress it because they are afraid), now if a guy will force the S.O. to participate in BDSM and she hates it, it will most likely fuck up the relationship, I have seen it on countless occasions, it breeds resentment. On the other hand I do not believe that it is possible to surpress your own BDSM leanings on the long run, so guys who can't act it out often get grumpy and a pain in the neck to live with, which also puts a strain on a relationship and can cause it to break.

In the ideal world a guy would be able to share it with his partner or get permission to act it out with somebody else, since chances of that are very unlikely, it is much better if he "betrays" his partner for the sake of a better relationship. He goes to a paid session, he gets it out of his system for a while, he goes home and is a better husband, everybody wins.

Do I believe the guy should tell the wife? NO and ABSOLUTELY NO!!!!
WHY? Very simple if she is not wired this way she would not understand, she would doubt herself, she would worry if she is not woman enough to keep him, it would cause all sorts of problems. So if a guy wants to "cheat" he should be able to cope with it, and not burden his SO with the knowledge. In fact he should do whatever he can to make 100% sure that the SO never finds out, if he feels bad about it and wants to talk to her about it - tough luck, he should rather find a shrink. It would not be fair to the GF or wife!

I think essentially BDSM boils down to respect in every way, as a top you have to respect the guy who is willing to submit (provided his submission comes from strength and not a weakness - too many people are drawn to BDSM as an easy way out, they don't want responsibility for their own lives or actions, they are the ones I don't really want to know or be associated with) just as the bottom owes you respect for the responsibility you are willing to take.

Respect for me also includes not forcing my sexual preference on vanilla people. I wouldn't enjoy seeing vanilla people fornicating when I'm having my dinner at a nice restaurant, so I do understand if vanilla people don't want to see people practising BDSM in public.
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Old 05-14-2006, 01:52 PM
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Default Re: Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistress Taylor
Is a visit to a dominatrix considered cheating. What do you guys think? What do you think your girlfriend/wives would or do think??? If they don't know you have gone or go to a dom what do you think they would do if they found out???
Beat the crap out of you, take all your money and blackmail you for the rest of your life but if he went to see you Mistress Taylor.. it would worth every penny
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Old 05-14-2006, 05:50 PM
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Default Re: Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyC
I had this question before and I do believe it is in a way, but I would like to differentiate a bit here.

I understand that not everybody is BDSM wired (though I believe almost everybody has the "BDSM gene" but a lot of people surpress it because they are afraid), now if a guy will force the S.O. to participate in BDSM and she hates it, it will most likely fuck up the relationship, I have seen it on countless occasions, it breeds resentment. On the other hand I do not believe that it is possible to surpress your own BDSM leanings on the long run, so guys who can't act it out often get grumpy and a pain in the neck to live with, which also puts a strain on a relationship and can cause it to break.

In the ideal world a guy would be able to share it with his partner or get permission to act it out with somebody else, since chances of that are very unlikely, it is much better if he "betrays" his partner for the sake of a better relationship. He goes to a paid session, he gets it out of his system for a while, he goes home and is a better husband, everybody wins.

Do I believe the guy should tell the wife? NO and ABSOLUTELY NO!!!!
WHY? Very simple if she is not wired this way she would not understand, she would doubt herself, she would worry if she is not woman enough to keep him, it would cause all sorts of problems. So if a guy wants to "cheat" he should be able to cope with it, and not burden his SO with the knowledge. In fact he should do whatever he can to make 100% sure that the SO never finds out, if he feels bad about it and wants to talk to her about it - tough luck, he should rather find a shrink. It would not be fair to the GF or wife!

I think essentially BDSM boils down to respect in every way, as a top you have to respect the guy who is willing to submit (provided his submission comes from strength and not a weakness - too many people are drawn to BDSM as an easy way out, they don't want responsibility for their own lives or actions, they are the ones I don't really want to know or be associated with) just as the bottom owes you respect for the responsibility you are willing to take.

Respect for me also includes not forcing my sexual preference on vanilla people. I wouldn't enjoy seeing vanilla people fornicating when I'm having my dinner at a nice restaurant, so I do understand if vanilla people don't want to see people practising BDSM in public.
When men conceal their BDSM proclivities from their Significant Others, they are usually not trying to protect their SO from mental anguish -- they are instead trying to avoid personal embarassment for themselves! In our repressed society, sadomasochism is viewed as an aberration, almost on a par with homosexuality. If a man values his stature in the community and the respect of his family and neighbors, he should probably keep such activities secret from everyone.
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Old 05-14-2006, 11:10 PM
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Default Re: Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash8.1
When men conceal their BDSM proclivities from their Significant Others, they are usually not trying to protect their SO from mental anguish -- they are instead trying to avoid personal embarassment for themselves! In our repressed society, sadomasochism is viewed as an aberration, almost on a par with homosexuality. If a man values his stature in the community and the respect of his family and neighbors, he should probably keep such activities secret from everyone.
How true and HOW SAD!!!
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Old 05-14-2006, 11:18 PM
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Default Re: Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

i agree 100% with Ash in his statement above - adn of course Mistress Taylor has hit it on the head - how sad - but unfortunately, how totally true. And, i speak from experience - as one who does just that.
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Old 05-15-2006, 12:13 AM
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Default Re: Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

We keep saying "Our Society" here, but this is an International Forum!

Is there anywhere in the world such things are Not considered Aberrations or worse?
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Old 05-15-2006, 01:30 AM
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Default Re: Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash8.1
When men conceal their BDSM proclivities from their Significant Others, they are usually not trying to protect their SO from mental anguish -- they are instead trying to avoid personal embarassment for themselves! In our repressed society, sadomasochism is viewed as an aberration, almost on a par with homosexuality. If a man values his stature in the community and the respect of his family and neighbors, he should probably keep such activities secret from everyone.

Yes, unfortunately true, but I understood the question if it is considered cheating and not what the social implications would be. So I think the partner would most likely suffer, especially if they have no leanings towards BDSM and would not understand that their guys do still love them, that BDSM is simply something completely else in which they unfortunately do not take part.

All too often women think they can change guys if they're good wives/girlfriends, it's an old mistake, the guy you meet is the guy you get, they are not going to change their ways.
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Old 05-15-2006, 02:00 AM
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Default Re: Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyC
Yes, unfortunately true, but I understood the question if it is considered cheating and not what the social implications would be. So I think the partner would most likely suffer, especially if they have no leanings towards BDSM and would not understand that their guys do still love them, that BDSM is simply something completely else in which they unfortunately do not take part.

All too often women think they can change guys if they're good wives/girlfriends, it's an old mistake, the guy you meet is the guy you get, they are not going to change their ways.
I agree. A man into BDSM will never stop being into BDSM---at the very least it will always be a part of his "fantasy bank."
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Old 05-15-2006, 03:54 AM
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Default Re: Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

Quote:
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I agree. A man into BDSM will never stop being into BDSM---at the very least it will always be a part of his "fantasy bank."
My account is overdrawn at The Fantasy Bank...
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Old 05-15-2006, 04:07 AM
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Default Re: Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sockratease
My account is overdrawn at The Fantasy Bank...
Better find someone soon to make a "deposit!"
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Old 05-15-2006, 03:39 PM
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Default Re: Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyC
Yes, unfortunately true, but I understood the question if it is considered cheating and not what the social implications would be. So I think the partner would most likely suffer, especially if they have no leanings towards BDSM and would not understand that their guys do still love them, that BDSM is simply something completely else in which they unfortunately do not take part.

All too often women think they can change guys if they're good wives/girlfriends, it's an old mistake, the guy you meet is the guy you get, they are not going to change their ways.
VERY TRUE
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Old 05-15-2006, 05:36 PM
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Default Re: Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sockratease
We keep saying "Our Society" here, but this is an International Forum!

Is there anywhere in the world such things are Not considered Aberrations or worse?

When I refer to Our Society, I mean "Western Civilization." Broadly speaking, Western Civilization refers to all societies in which the dominant religious beliefs stem from Judeo-Christianity, the dominant language is from the Indo-European family of languages, and the dominant cultural views stem from Ancient Greece, Rome, and Egypt. Thus, "Our Society" means: Europe, Australia, Saharan Africa, the Middle East, the entire Western Hemisphere, and the European communities that exist in other parts of the world, such as South Africa. Most anthropologists also include India as part of the "Western World." It's a big Society! I don't know of any civilization that has ever openly embraced Female Sexual Dominance or any of the other fetishes we discuss here.

It should come as no surprise that sadomasochism and fetish is viewed as a perversion. Homosexuality, for example, is considered a "lifestyle choice" by some and a mental disease by others. Masturbation has also long been regarded as sinful. Childless couples were until recently considered strange. And even the idea of a Woman having a relationship with a younger man is seen as taboo in many circles to this day! For that matter, even the concept of a Woman having a relationship with a poorer man is regarded as strange and taboo by many people! People have distaste for precisely these practices because they are not conducive to producing children. Homosexuals cannot have children. Masturbation cannot produce children. Older Women are less likely to be fertile and to have children. When Women are career-driven and well-paid they are less likely to stay home and raise children. Children, children, children! "What will we tell the children?!" Why does Western Civilization need so many children? Because we have so many wars, and wars require man-power and cannon-fodder! And by now this has become so acculturated and ingrained in us all. When people think of relationships, they think marriage. And when they think marriage, they think children. And when they think of children, they think grandchildren. I know I've gone pretty far afield, but it kind of makes sense if you think about it.
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Old 05-15-2006, 05:39 PM
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Default Re: Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyC
Yes, unfortunately true, but I understood the question if it is considered cheating and not what the social implications would be. So I think the partner would most likely suffer, especially if they have no leanings towards BDSM and would not understand that their guys do still love them, that BDSM is simply something completely else in which they unfortunately do not take part.

All too often women think they can change guys if they're good wives/girlfriends, it's an old mistake, the guy you meet is the guy you get, they are not going to change their ways.
You understood the question correctly. I was merely responding and commenting on one of Your points.
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Old 05-16-2006, 04:41 AM
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Default Re: Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

I think it is definatly cheating on some level without your wife or girlfriends aproval. A lot of men in here have said because there is no sex it isn't.

I think that is because it is a fantasy that there soul almost craves they are in denial because they want it so bad.

But it is cheating and perhaps why you shouldn't do it. Which ironically makes you want it more..... and if its teasing and denial you're after its even more ironic. LOL
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Old 05-16-2006, 03:11 PM
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Default Re: Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ash8.1
When I refer to Our Society, I mean "Western Civilization." Broadly speaking, Western Civilization refers to all societies in which the dominant religious beliefs stem from Judeo-Christianity, the dominant language is from the Indo-European family of languages, and the dominant cultural views stem from Ancient Greece, Rome, and Egypt. Thus, "Our Society" means: Europe, Australia, Saharan Africa, the Middle East, the entire Western Hemisphere, and the European communities that exist in other parts of the world, such as South Africa. Most anthropologists also include India as part of the "Western World." It's a big Society! I don't know of any civilization that has ever openly embraced Female Sexual Dominance or any of the other fetishes we discuss here.

It should come as no surprise that sadomasochism and fetish is viewed as a perversion. Homosexuality, for example, is considered a "lifestyle choice" by some and a mental disease by others. Masturbation has also long been regarded as sinful. Childless couples were until recently considered strange. And even the idea of a Woman having a relationship with a younger man is seen as taboo in many circles to this day! For that matter, even the concept of a Woman having a relationship with a poorer man is regarded as strange and taboo by many people! People have distaste for precisely these practices because they are not conducive to producing children. Homosexuals cannot have children. Masturbation cannot produce children. Older Women are less likely to be fertile and to have children. When Women are career-driven and well-paid they are less likely to stay home and raise children. Children, children, children! "What will we tell the children?!" Why does Western Civilization need so many children? Because we have so many wars, and wars require man-power and cannon-fodder! And by now this has become so acculturated and ingrained in us all. When people think of relationships, they think marriage. And when they think marriage, they think children. And when they think of children, they think grandchildren. I know I've gone pretty far afield, but it kind of makes sense if you think about it.
I think you will find this article interesting.



Dorothy C. Hayden, CSW

A number of years ago, in connection with my work with sexual addiction, a number of lifestyle submissives started coming to me for treatment. Some of these people were extremely hesitant to discuss their reasons for seeking therapy; they were so ashamed of their fantasies and behaviors that it took years of working with them until I knew their real names or their telephone numbers. Patients who able to be forthcoming about their masochistic behaviors and fantasies were as as I was. One of my patients, giving me a written masochistic fantasy after months of resistance, said, "Here it is. This is what I came to therapy for. It's terrible. It's sick. It's wonderful. I hate it; it's my favorite fantasy. I can't stand it, I love it. It's disgusting. I don't want to stop it."

Learning about the world of S&M has been an invaluable experience to me. I had to admit to myself that, viewed from the perspective of what I knew about the nature of the individual self, masochism puzzled me by flying in the face of everything that was rational about the nature of the human personality. People want to be happy and to avoid pain and suffering. They seek to maintain and increase their control over themselves and their surroundings. And they desire to maintain and increase their prestige, respect, and esteem. Viewed from the perspective of these three principles about the self, masochism is a startling paradox. The self is developed to avoid pain, but masochists seek pain. The self strives for control, but masochists seek to relinquish control. The self aims to maximize its esteem, but masochists deliberately seek out humiliation.

I heard stories of whips, canes, racks, cock-and-ball torture, dripping wax on naked skin, electronic devices designed to deliver just the right amount of pain, the difficulty of finding the right mistress, and the surprising number of "dungeons" that existed within a few block radius of my office. Time and again, men would talk of the frustration of being unable to entice their wives or partners, who found these sexual activities to be perverse, into engaging in the sexual behaviors that they most longed for.

I suspected that there was a vast number of people who felt tremendous shame and isolation about masochistic submissive longings. I decided to check the clinical literature on masochism to better arm myself with some psychodynamic understanding of why these men, who so often felt shame-bound, were so keen to be dominated, hurt, tortured and humiliated by strong, dominate women.

This is what my research revealed: According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association, (the shrink's bible), anyone who engages regularly in masochistic sex is mentally ill by definition. There is a long tradition of regarding masochism as the activity of mentally ill sick individuals. Freud described masochism as a perversion. One of his followers linked masochism to cannibalism, criminality, necrophilia and vampirism. Another analyst said that all neurotics are masochistics. In short, clinical perspectives have regarded masochists as seriously disturbed.

Krafft-Ebing, the nineteenth-century psychiatrist who coined the term, subsumed masochism under the broad heading of "General Pathology" in this famous volume, Psychopath Sexualize, in 1876. Masochism became a pathological, sexual and psychopathic phenomenon all at once.

"By masochism I understand a particular perversion of the psychical sexual life in which the individual affected, in sexual feeling and thought, is controlled by the idea of being completely and unconditionally subject to the will of a person of the opposite sex; of being treated by this person as a master -- humiliated and abused. This idea is colored by lustful feeling; the masochist lives in fantasies, in which he creates situations of this kind and often attempts to realize them. By this perversion his sexual instinct is often made more or less insensible to the normal charms of the opposite sex - incapable of a normal sexual life - psychically impotent."
It has become practically a dogma of psychoanalytic thought that masochism is a sexual condition in which punishment is required before satisfaction can be reached. Freud understood the phenomenon as resulting from an "unconscious feeling of guilt" as "a need for punishment by some parental authority. Writing in 1919, Freud found the genesis and reference point for masochism in the Oedipus-complex. Masochism, he said, actually begins in infantile sexuality, when the wish for the incestuous connection with mother or father must be repressed. Guilt enters at this point, in connection with incestuous wishes. The parent figure then becomes the dispenser of punishment instead of love and appears in desires for beating, spanking, etc. The fantasy of being beaten becomes the meeting place between the sense of guilt and sexual love. Whether it involves literal pain or not, the punishment desired by the masochist is enjoyed in and of itself. Punishment and satisfaction both give pleasure - and humiliation. Freud, in referring to masochism as a "perversion", cemented it forever in the ghetto of the aberrant and deviant.

My research, however, did not jibe with my clinical reality. The people who presented to me were not immature or inferior. In fact, the reverse seemed to be the case. Masochists are more likely to be successful by social standards: professionally, sexually, emotionally, culturally, in marriages or out. They are frequently individuals of inner strength of character, possessed of strong coping skills with an ethical sense of individual responsibility. A famous study of the "sexual profile of men in power" found to the researchers' surprise, a high quantity of masochistic sexual activity among successful politicians, judges and other important and influential men.

It became obvious to me that psychology's theories of masochism were obsolete. In the 1960's, homosexuality was deleted from the DSMIV and was recognized not as a pathology, but as a lifestyle choice. It is my contention that the same should be done with masochism and that, like homosexuality, it needs to be removed from the rubric of "psychopathology" and be seen for what it is: a sexual lifestyle choice. It is the intention of this paper to suggest ways of understanding masochism without invoking theories of mental illness.

The questions, however, remained. I puzzled as to why so many men, raised in a culture that valued masculine initiative, assertiveness, and dominance, want to be relieved of these qualities and surrender their will to a strong, dominant woman who might torture, control and humiliate them. What was the basis of this compelling urge to surrender and serve, to relinquish control, to accept physical pain and emotional humiliation?

As I listened to my patients over the years, I began to see masochism less as a sexual aberration and more as a metaphor through which psyche speaks of its suffering and passion. There was a definite connection between suffering and pleasure the intrigued me. Clients spoke of the rapturous delight in submission, the worship, in wild abandon and the deliverance from the confining bondage of "normalcy".

Ritualized suffering seemed to be a way of giving meaning and value to human infirmities. After all, there is no paucity of suffering in human life. None of us need go looking for pain. The suffering of helplessness, disappointment, loss, powerlessness and limitation, is a part of the human condition. It is my hunch that there is something like a universal need, wish or longing for surrender completely to certain aspects of human life and that it assumes many forms. This passionate longing to surrender comes into play in at least some instances of masochism. Submission, losing oneself to the power of the other, becoming enslaved to the master is the ever-available lookalike to surrender.

Submissives speak of a quality of liberation, freedom and expansion of the self in a scene as a situation similar to the letting down of defensive barriers. They speak of the experience of complete vulnerability. I believe that buried or frozen, is a longing for something in the environment to make possible surrender, a sense of yielding of the false self. The false self is an idea developed by a famous psychoanalyst who posited that most parents need their children to behave in circumscribed ways in order for the child to receive their love. For a child, parental love is a matter of survival, and so the child forges a "self" that they think will ensure parental love and approval. The false self is usually a "caretaker" self. A Scene sometimes allows for years of defensive barriers that support the false self to be broken through. It carries with it a longing for the birth of the true self. Deep down we long to give up, to "come clean", as part of a general longing to be known or recognized. The prospect of surrender may be accompanied by a feeling of dread and or relief or even ecstasy. It is an experience of being "in the moment", totally in the present. Its ultimate direction is the discovery of one's identity, one's sense of self, of one's sense of wholeness, even one's sense of unity with other living beings. Joyous in spirit, it transcends the pain that evokes it. One's exquisite pain is sometimes akin to mystical ecstasy. Within the context of that surrender, a self-negating submissive experience occurs in which the person is enthralled by the dominant partner. The intensity of the masochism is a living testimonial of the urgency with which some buried part of the personality is screaming to be released. The surrender is nothing less than a controlled dissolution of self-boundaries.

The deeper yearning is the longing to be reached, known and accepted in a safe environment which narcissistic, dysfunctional or preoccupied parents were unable to provide the child at a young age.

Fantasies of being raped, which are very common, can have all manners of meanings. Among them, one will almost always find, sometimes deeply buried, a yearning for deep surrender. The submissive longs for and wishes to be found, recognized, penetrated to the core, so as to become real, or, as one analyst says it "to come into being."

In addition to the longing to surrender into a truer sense of self, masochistic behaviors have another meaning. People need and take delight in fantasy production. Ask the Disneyland folk who cater to adults as much as to children. Scenes have tremendous potential for potentiating fantasy. Costumes, rituals, scenarios, an endless variety of sex props, and elaborate sets reveal of the richness the creative inner life and speak to the very real human need for fantasy play. The fantasies are the carriers of a full spectrum of human feelings: to control, to be controlled, to tease, to be teased, to play, to please, and to achieve solace from the confines of the mundaness of ordinary life. They represent the suspension of normal reality that is an occasional necessity for all healthy people.

Probably the last thing masochism appears aimed at is balance. In keeping with its paradoxical nature, masochism provides not so much a state of weakness, but a sense of surrender, receptivity and sensitivity. Masochism is the condition of submitting fully to an experience, which counters lives that, in our Western society, are ego-centered, constrained, rational, and competitive. Strength can be a terrible burden. It is a constraint, which can be relieved in moments of abandonment, of letting down and letting go. So it is hardly surprising that the pull of masochistic experiences should be so strong in a culture the overvalues ego strength at the expense of a fuller experience of all dimensions of psychic life.

In conclusion, I believe that therapists need to radically alter their approach to doing psychotherapy with masochistic patients. My colleagues complain that masochists are difficult to "cure". Perhaps because the paradigm from which these therapists operate are faulty. The recognition of value and meaning in the desire to suffer humiliation runs counter to the prevailing attitude in psychology. The main thrust of modern theory and practice has been toward ego psychology. The values of psychotherapy have been aimed, for the most part, at building strong, coping, rational problem-solving egos. Ego-values are certainly worthy ones, yet it costs something to gain strength, to cope, to be rational and to solve problems. This may account for the dissatisfaction many people feel after years of psychotherapy. Building a strong ego is only one side of the story; it neglects other, crucial parts of the human psyche. Modern psychology has been in large measure dominated by helping people develop independence, strength, achievement decisive action, coping and planning. What's missing is attention to the more subtle dimensions of soul.

The psychoanalyst most in tuned with the missing element in psychotherapeutic work with masochism is Carl Jung. Masochism may be imagined as cultivation of what Jung called the "shadow" - the darker, mostly unconscious part of the psyche which he regarded not as a sickness, but as an essential part of the human psyche. The shadow is the tunnel, channel, or connector through which one reaches the deepest, most elemental layers of psyche. Going through the tunnel, or breaking the ego defenses down, one feels reduced and degraded. Usually, we try to bring the shadow under the ego's domination. Embracing the shadow, on the other hand, provides a fuller sense of self-knowledge, self-acceptance and a fuller sense of being alive. Jung's idea of the shadow involves force and passivity, horror and beauty, power and impotence, straightness and perversion, infantilism, wisdom and foolishness. The experience of the shadow is humiliating and occasionally frightening, but it is a reduction to life‹to essential life, which includes suffering, pain, powerlessness and humiliation. Submission to masochistic pain, loss of control and humiliation serves to embrace our shadow rather than deny it. The result is the achievement of an inner life that accepts and embraces all aspects of our selves and allows us to live with a deeper sense of our true selves.

In conclusion, the psychotherapeutic community needs to re-examine masochistic submissions to see it not as a pathology but as a healthy vehicle for surrendering fixed defense mechanisms, for relinquishing control to something or someone greater than themselves, for achieving freedom from the pervasive and relentless need to cultivate, promote and assert the self, for gaining some relief from having to make innumerable choices and decisions, for engaging in healthy fantasy enactments, and for the exploration, acknowledge and acceptance the "darker" or "shadow" side of their personalities. In addition, many patients speak of achieving a loss of self-awareness that they describe as ecstasy or bliss in which the individual transcends his normal limits and ceases to be aware of self in ordinary terms.

A travesty of our profession is that we continue to try to "cure" a systems of beliefs and behaviors that enrich and enlivens the lives of so many people. The continuing pathologizing of masochism by keeping it in the DSMIV as a psychopathology and by most therapists' efforts to "cure" masochists is in part responsible for the continued , shame, isolation and low self-esteem of these creative, spontaneous and courage people who want to be afforded the dignity of choosing their own form of non-exploitative sexuality.

Dorothy Hayden, CSW, is a New York-based psychotherapist who specializes in the scene, fetishes and sexual addiction. She received her M.S.W. from New York University and her psychoanalytic training at the Post Graduate Center for Mental Health. She can be reached at dhayden@nyc.rr.com
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Old 05-16-2006, 03:19 PM
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Default Re: Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTester
I definitely do not consider it cheating!
What do you consider cheating? I keep hearing men say that since they are not having sex they are not cheating? What is their definition of sex? Just intercourse? There are many guys that would prefer to sniff a foot or whatever and jack off to having sex. If that is more sexually fufilling than having intercourse is that cheating? Unfortunatly, a lot of women would not understand this so I CLEARLY see why men do not consider it cheating. If more women were understanding and less judgemental about fetishes, I wonder if I would even have a job.
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Old 05-16-2006, 03:29 PM
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Default Re: Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistress Taylor
What do you consider cheating? I keep hearing men say that since they are not having sex they are not cheating? What is their definition of sex? Just intercourse? There are many guys that would prefer to sniff a foot or whatever and jack off to having sex. If that is more sexually fufilling than having intercourse is that cheating? Unfortunatly, a lot of women would not understand this so I CLEARLY see why men do not consider it cheating. If more women were understanding and less judgemental about fetishes, I wonder if I would even have a job.

I recently had that discussion with a bunch of friends about what is considered cheating and what hurts, funny enough the women were more in favour of a guy sleeping with another woman and being done and over with it instead of the fantasizing about another woman while he has sex with the SO. The guys weren't so bothered about what the woman thinks during sex, but sex with another guy would be a betrayal.

Quite funny how different minds work. I usually told the guys I was with that if they stray, I expect them to be "protected" (no souvenirs please) and they should be discrete about it, because if I would find out, there would be hell to pay, and I mean HELL
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Default Re: Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistress Taylor
I think you will find this article interesting.



Dorothy C. Hayden, CSW

A number of years ago, in connection with my work with sexual addiction, a number of lifestyle submissives started coming to me for treatment. Some of these people were extremely hesitant to discuss their reasons for seeking therapy; they were so ashamed of their fantasies and behaviors that it took years of working with them until I knew their real names or their telephone numbers. Patients who able to be forthcoming about their masochistic behaviors and fantasies were as as I was. One of my patients, giving me a written masochistic fantasy after months of resistance, said, "Here it is. This is what I came to therapy for. It's terrible. It's sick. It's wonderful. I hate it; it's my favorite fantasy. I can't stand it, I love it. It's disgusting. I don't want to stop it."

Learning about the world of S&M has been an invaluable experience to me. I had to admit to myself that, viewed from the perspective of what I knew about the nature of the individual self, masochism puzzled me by flying in the face of everything that was rational about the nature of the human personality. People want to be happy and to avoid pain and suffering. They seek to maintain and increase their control over themselves and their surroundings. And they desire to maintain and increase their prestige, respect, and esteem. Viewed from the perspective of these three principles about the self, masochism is a startling paradox. The self is developed to avoid pain, but masochists seek pain. The self strives for control, but masochists seek to relinquish control. The self aims to maximize its esteem, but masochists deliberately seek out humiliation.

I heard stories of whips, canes, racks, cock-and-ball torture, dripping wax on naked skin, electronic devices designed to deliver just the right amount of pain, the difficulty of finding the right mistress, and the surprising number of "dungeons" that existed within a few block radius of my office. Time and again, men would talk of the frustration of being unable to entice their wives or partners, who found these sexual activities to be perverse, into engaging in the sexual behaviors that they most longed for.

I suspected that there was a vast number of people who felt tremendous shame and isolation about masochistic submissive longings. I decided to check the clinical literature on masochism to better arm myself with some psychodynamic understanding of why these men, who so often felt shame-bound, were so keen to be dominated, hurt, tortured and humiliated by strong, dominate women.

This is what my research revealed: According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association, (the shrink's bible), anyone who engages regularly in masochistic sex is mentally ill by definition. There is a long tradition of regarding masochism as the activity of mentally ill sick individuals. Freud described masochism as a perversion. One of his followers linked masochism to cannibalism, criminality, necrophilia and vampirism. Another analyst said that all neurotics are masochistics. In short, clinical perspectives have regarded masochists as seriously disturbed.

Krafft-Ebing, the nineteenth-century psychiatrist who coined the term, subsumed masochism under the broad heading of "General Pathology" in this famous volume, Psychopath Sexualize, in 1876. Masochism became a pathological, sexual and psychopathic phenomenon all at once.




"By masochism I understand a particular perversion of the psychical sexual life in which the individual affected, in sexual feeling and thought, is controlled by the idea of being completely and unconditionally subject to the will of a person of the opposite sex; of being treated by this person as a master -- humiliated and abused. This idea is colored by lustful feeling; the masochist lives in fantasies, in which he creates situations of this kind and often attempts to realize them. By this perversion his sexual instinct is often made more or less insensible to the normal charms of the opposite sex - incapable of a normal sexual life - psychically impotent."
It has become practically a dogma of psychoanalytic thought that masochism is a sexual condition in which punishment is required before satisfaction can be reached. Freud understood the phenomenon as resulting from an "unconscious feeling of guilt" as "a need for punishment by some parental authority. Writing in 1919, Freud found the genesis and reference point for masochism in the Oedipus-complex. Masochism, he said, actually begins in infantile sexuality, when the wish for the incestuous connection with mother or father must be repressed. Guilt enters at this point, in connection with incestuous wishes. The parent figure then becomes the dispenser of punishment instead of love and appears in desires for beating, spanking, etc. The fantasy of being beaten becomes the meeting place between the sense of guilt and sexual love. Whether it involves literal pain or not, the punishment desired by the masochist is enjoyed in and of itself. Punishment and satisfaction both give pleasure - and humiliation. Freud, in referring to masochism as a "perversion", cemented it forever in the ghetto of the aberrant and deviant.

My research, however, did not jibe with my clinical reality. The people who presented to me were not immature or inferior. In fact, the reverse seemed to be the case. Masochists are more likely to be successful by social standards: professionally, sexually, emotionally, culturally, in marriages or out. They are frequently individuals of inner strength of character, possessed of strong coping skills with an ethical sense of individual responsibility. A famous study of the "sexual profile of men in power" found to the researchers' surprise, a high quantity of masochistic sexual activity among successful politicians, judges and other important and influential men.

It became obvious to me that psychology's theories of masochism were obsolete. In the 1960's, homosexuality was deleted from the DSMIV and was recognized not as a pathology, but as a lifestyle choice. It is my contention that the same should be done with masochism and that, like homosexuality, it needs to be removed from the rubric of "psychopathology" and be seen for what it is: a sexual lifestyle choice. It is the intention of this paper to suggest ways of understanding masochism without invoking theories of mental illness.

The questions, however, remained. I puzzled as to why so many men, raised in a culture that valued masculine initiative, assertiveness, and dominance, want to be relieved of these qualities and surrender their will to a strong, dominant woman who might torture, control and humiliate them. What was the basis of this compelling urge to surrender and serve, to relinquish control, to accept physical pain and emotional humiliation?

As I listened to my patients over the years, I began to see masochism less as a sexual aberration and more as a metaphor through which psyche speaks of its suffering and passion. There was a definite connection between suffering and pleasure the intrigued me. Clients spoke of the rapturous delight in submission, the worship, in wild abandon and the deliverance from the confining bondage of "normalcy".

Ritualized suffering seemed to be a way of giving meaning and value to human infirmities. After all, there is no paucity of suffering in human life. None of us need go looking for pain. The suffering of helplessness, disappointment, loss, powerlessness and limitation, is a part of the human condition. It is my hunch that there is something like a universal need, wish or longing for surrender completely to certain aspects of human life and that it assumes many forms. This passionate longing to surrender comes into play in at least some instances of masochism. Submission, losing oneself to the power of the other, becoming enslaved to the master is the ever-available lookalike to surrender.

Submissives speak of a quality of liberation, freedom and expansion of the self in a scene as a situation similar to the letting down of defensive barriers. They speak of the experience of complete vulnerability. I believe that buried or frozen, is a longing for something in the environment to make possible surrender, a sense of yielding of the false self. The false self is an idea developed by a famous psychoanalyst who posited that most parents need their children to behave in circumscribed ways in order for the child to receive their love. For a child, parental love is a matter of survival, and so the child forges a "self" that they think will ensure parental love and approval. The false self is usually a "caretaker" self. A Scene sometimes allows for years of defensive barriers that support the false self to be broken through. It carries with it a longing for the birth of the true self. Deep down we long to give up, to "come clean", as part of a general longing to be known or recognized. The prospect of surrender may be accompanied by a feeling of dread and or relief or even ecstasy. It is an experience of being "in the moment", totally in the present. Its ultimate direction is the discovery of one's identity, one's sense of self, of one's sense of wholeness, even one's sense of unity with other living beings. Joyous in spirit, it transcends the pain that evokes it. One's exquisite pain is sometimes akin to mystical ecstasy. Within the context of that surrender, a self-negating submissive experience occurs in which the person is enthralled by the dominant partner. The intensity of the masochism is a living testimonial of the urgency with which some buried part of the personality is screaming to be released. The surrender is nothing less than a controlled dissolution of self-boundaries.

The deeper yearning is the longing to be reached, known and accepted in a safe environment which narcissistic, dysfunctional or preoccupied parents were unable to provide the child at a young age.

Fantasies of being raped, which are very common, can have all manners of meanings. Among them, one will almost always find, sometimes deeply buried, a yearning for deep surrender. The submissive longs for and wishes to be found, recognized, penetrated to the core, so as to become real, or, as one analyst says it "to come into being."

In addition to the longing to surrender into a truer sense of self, masochistic behaviors have another meaning. People need and take delight in fantasy production. Ask the Disneyland folk who cater to adults as much as to children. Scenes have tremendous potential for potentiating fantasy. Costumes, rituals, scenarios, an endless variety of sex props, and elaborate sets reveal of the richness the creative inner life and speak to the very real human need for fantasy play. The fantasies are the carriers of a full spectrum of human feelings: to control, to be controlled, to tease, to be teased, to play, to please, and to achieve solace from the confines of the mundaness of ordinary life. They represent the suspension of normal reality that is an occasional necessity for all healthy people.

Probably the last thing masochism appears aimed at is balance. In keeping with its paradoxical nature, masochism provides not so much a state of weakness, but a sense of surrender, receptivity and sensitivity. Masochism is the condition of submitting fully to an experience, which counters lives that, in our Western society, are ego-centered, constrained, rational, and competitive. Strength can be a terrible burden. It is a constraint, which can be relieved in moments of abandonment, of letting down and letting go. So it is hardly surprising that the pull of masochistic experiences should be so strong in a culture the overvalues ego strength at the expense of a fuller experience of all dimensions of psychic life.

In conclusion, I believe that therapists need to radically alter their approach to doing psychotherapy with masochistic patients. My colleagues complain that masochists are difficult to "cure". Perhaps because the paradigm from which these therapists operate are faulty. The recognition of value and meaning in the desire to suffer humiliation runs counter to the prevailing attitude in psychology. The main thrust of modern theory and practice has been toward ego psychology. The values of psychotherapy have been aimed, for the most part, at building strong, coping, rational problem-solving egos. Ego-values are certainly worthy ones, yet it costs something to gain strength, to cope, to be rational and to solve problems. This may account for the dissatisfaction many people feel after years of psychotherapy. Building a strong ego is only one side of the story; it neglects other, crucial parts of the human psyche. Modern psychology has been in large measure dominated by helping people develop independence, strength, achievement decisive action, coping and planning. What's missing is attention to the more subtle dimensions of soul.

The psychoanalyst most in tuned with the missing element in psychotherapeutic work with masochism is Carl Jung. Masochism may be imagined as cultivation of what Jung called the "shadow" - the darker, mostly unconscious part of the psyche which he regarded not as a sickness, but as an essential part of the human psyche. The shadow is the tunnel, channel, or connector through which one reaches the deepest, most elemental layers of psyche. Going through the tunnel, or breaking the ego defenses down, one feels reduced and degraded. Usually, we try to bring the shadow under the ego's domination. Embracing the shadow, on the other hand, provides a fuller sense of self-knowledge, self-acceptance and a fuller sense of being alive. Jung's idea of the shadow involves force and passivity, horror and beauty, power and impotence, straightness and perversion, infantilism, wisdom and foolishness. The experience of the shadow is humiliating and occasionally frightening, but it is a reduction to life‹to essential life, which includes suffering, pain, powerlessness and humiliation. Submission to masochistic pain, loss of control and humiliation serves to embrace our shadow rather than deny it. The result is the achievement of an inner life that accepts and embraces all aspects of our selves and allows us to live with a deeper sense of our true selves.

In conclusion, the psychotherapeutic community needs to re-examine masochistic submissions to see it not as a pathology but as a healthy vehicle for surrendering fixed defense mechanisms, for relinquishing control to something or someone greater than themselves, for achieving freedom from the pervasive and relentless need to cultivate, promote and assert the self, for gaining some relief from having to make innumerable choices and decisions, for engaging in healthy fantasy enactments, and for the exploration, acknowledge and acceptance the "darker" or "shadow" side of their personalities. In addition, many patients speak of achieving a loss of self-awareness that they describe as ecstasy or bliss in which the individual transcends his normal limits and ceases to be aware of self in ordinary terms.

A travesty of our profession is that we continue to try to "cure" a systems of beliefs and behaviors that enrich and enlivens the lives of so many people. The continuing pathologizing of masochism by keeping it in the DSMIV as a psychopathology and by most therapists' efforts to "cure" masochists is in part responsible for the continued , shame, isolation and low self-esteem of these creative, spontaneous and courage people who want to be afforded the dignity of choosing their own form of non-exploitative sexuality.

Dorothy Hayden, CSW, is a New York-based psychotherapist who specializes in the scene, fetishes and sexual addiction. She received her M.S.W. from New York University and her psychoanalytic training at the Post Graduate Center for Mental Health. She can be reached at dhayden@nyc.rr.com
Thank you very much for this fascinating article, Mistress Taylor. I agree with almost everything She wrote, with only one exception. First, She states that masochism should be removed from the category of psychiatric disorder because, like homosexuality, it is a "lifestyle choice." She also makes mention of Her colleagues who discuss failure to "cure" their patients of sexual masochism. I disagree with Her assessment here. I do not believe that either homosexuality or sexual masochism are "choices." Given my choice, I would prefer not to be a sexual masochist for a variety of reasons. But the choice is not mine to make. I don't think any person can choose his or her own turn-ons. We are what we are. Whether it is nature or nurture, in-born or learned, is irrelevant. What matters is that there are some things that cannot be reversed. A physician cannot "cure" a homosexual or a masochist, because it is not a condition that can be cured. Similarly, heterosexuality cannot be cured or reversed. One cannot "cure" a person of having brown eyes, or reverse a preference for red-heads or men in uniform. It is in our nature as a society, when things seem most uncontrollable, that we delude ourselves into believing that we have the power of choice. Some things are within our control and some things are out of our control. And some things just are the way they are.

But other than that, the writer really spoke eloquently to the subject-matter at hand. I enjoyed reading a mental health professional's views on this topic very much.
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Old 05-16-2006, 09:00 PM
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Default Re: Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

only if the dick gets touched
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Old 05-16-2006, 09:17 PM
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Mistress Perverta She Might Even Let You CumMistress Perverta She Might Even Let You CumMistress Perverta She Might Even Let You CumMistress Perverta She Might Even Let You CumMistress Perverta She Might Even Let You CumMistress Perverta She Might Even Let You CumMistress Perverta She Might Even Let You CumMistress Perverta She Might Even Let You CumMistress Perverta She Might Even Let You CumMistress Perverta She Might Even Let You CumMistress Perverta She Might Even Let You Cum
Default Re: Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

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Originally Posted by blbskate
only if the dick gets touched
And in a sense, that's quite true. Do U know that never in a session when I was practicing did I ever touch a man's dick, with the exception of "incidental contact." Call me a prude, or call Me a Bitch. (Just don't call Me collect!)
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Old 05-17-2006, 12:46 AM
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Default Re: Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

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And in a sense, that's quite true. Do U know that never in a session when I was practicing did I ever touch a man's dick, with the exception of "incidental contact." Call me a prude, or call Me a Bitch. (Just don't call Me collect!)
I never had sex or gave a slave a blow job but I LOVE to torture a slaves cock however I can get away with it. I would not consider you a prude many mistresses would never touch a slaves cock.
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Old 05-17-2006, 04:18 AM
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Default Re: Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

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I never had sex or gave a slave a blow job but I LOVE to torture a slaves cock however I can get away with it. I would not consider you a prude many mistresses would never touch a slaves cock.
I think it would be the job of the slave to give your strapon a BJ, and yep, torturing their dangly parts is a lot of fun, can't beat a bit of CBT, they so want you to touch their cocks that they're even prepared to take the pain for it. Just the look of fear in their eyes when you run a warthenberg wheel or a sharp nail over it ;) And how can you apply deep heat to their balls without touching the cock?
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Old 05-17-2006, 04:36 AM
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Default Re: Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

if it sounds like cheating, looks like cheating or smells like cheating.....


chances are its cheating..

why risk it.. imho its not worth it.. you could always bring your "needs" to the person your with and if you cant then maybe you shouldnt be with them at all....
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Old 05-17-2006, 04:44 AM
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Default Re: Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

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if it sounds like cheating, looks like cheating or smells like cheating.....


chances are its cheating..

why risk it.. imho its not worth it.. you could always bring your "needs" to the person your with and if you cant then maybe you shouldnt be with them at all....

You know, finding the "right" partner is a bit like winning the lottery, finding a partner you love and who loves you AND expecting that your partner even shares your kink is a bit like expecting to win the lottery twice in a row.

In an ideal world, I would agree with you, unfortunately our world is far than ideal. Now I had partners who were not into BDSM, they would have indulged my kinks but I simply didn't want it, they were not wired that way and chances were that in the end they would resent me for it - I didn't want to risk a great friendship over it. We agreed that as long as I am not having sex with anybody, I could fulfill my sadistic tendencies with others. It did work for us.
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Old 05-17-2006, 05:33 AM
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Default Re: Is a visit to a Dominatrix considered Cheating???

from my experiance with women it has never been an off topic... they tend to always love "kink" i mean its in the nature of bed room w/e is welcome.. i guess then i've won the lottery alot then when it comes to finding the "right" person vs. the right now person:proud: , but then again im not that hardcore or very submissive to begin with, i would say maybe im mild but i do like finding new things too...
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